#2 Riah Knight about Roma Representation

00:00:04: Feminist Time Travel.

00:00:12: Hello and

00:00:13: welcome to the second episode of Feminists Time Travel, The

00:00:16: podcast by

00:00:17: Prokortafilm.

00:00:18: I'm Clara de Manthier an actor And i also organized a film series

00:00:22: feminist

00:00:23: time travel for prokortofilm together with Svenja Heinrichs and Irina Tiapp.

00:00:28: And yes, this series obviously has the same name as this podcast which is because we invite guests here who are curators or actors or directors to our feminist time travel project.

00:00:42: So today my guest is Raya Knight!

00:00:45: Raya curated a screening for us in May and We Are Going To Show Ava by Lea Misius on the twentieth of may at Cinematran's Torpia, which I'm really excited for and we're going to talk about it a bit.

00:00:58: So Raya you are an actor on The Singer And You've Been Working At the Maxim Gorky Theatre in Berlin with the Collective Glossy Pain!

00:01:09: If your in Berlin some of might have seen Raya In Slippery Slope or more recently at Carmen Those also both place who tell stories of Roma as

00:01:24: Wow, that came out super awkwardly.

00:01:26: And you're so very active in the Roman community and That is also how we met at Akadikiya Film Festival of Romani film.

00:01:35: before We start I wanted to say which i forgot last time please rate and review this podcast.

00:01:40: it's really important um...we have Really small projects.

00:01:44: So It really helps us a lot if You feed The algorithm.

00:01:48: just give Us A five star Review.

00:01:52: Soraya, hello!

00:01:54: Hi Here we go.

00:01:56: So nice to have you here.

00:01:57: as I said We already met but always in very like work context.

00:02:03: so uh...we're gonna start off with a childhood question.

00:02:09: Do you remember what was the first film?

00:02:13: You saw?

00:02:13: do you have a vivid memory of like a film experience and your childhood?

00:02:18: The first one, yeah that's pretty hard.

00:02:20: I mean...I guess most kids of my age in Britain watched Bambi.

00:02:28: Highly traumatizing film.

00:02:29: It is!

00:02:31: I definitely watched a lot of Disney as kid and My favorites were Mulan & Pogo.

00:02:38: Hunters love those films.

00:02:39: i actually think Mulan Is A Really Interesting Film.

00:02:41: probably it has some like very not genuine or maybe like slightly problematic portrayals of Chinese culture.

00:02:54: But there's this one line in, In One Of The Songs which I always really loved as a kid where Milan dresses up has a warrior and hides and pretends to be man.

00:03:07: then they have the song that they sing.

00:03:11: the men are all singing about what sort of woman they want when they go back from war and she says, What about a women that speaks her mind?

00:03:18: And then you'll go nah.

00:03:21: I love this kid!

00:03:22: You were like yes it's just a spirit.

00:03:24: okay yeah my mom actually banned me from watching Disney movies because she was a bit like i don't know like Waldorf.

00:03:32: Yeah

00:03:33: and she doesn't like the voices like the animated like the voices.

00:03:39: She thinks it's really annoying, but also she thought it was too traumatizing and she was like why did the characters always have to lose a parent?

00:03:45: And she was this bad.

00:03:47: my kiss

00:03:47: should not

00:03:48: be confront with that!

00:03:49: But I think i was an easily scared kid so she probably was right about that...I would've been traumatized for sure.

00:04:00: yeah..i watched this Augsburger Puppenküste very slow

00:04:09: tempo,

00:04:09: yeah.

00:04:10: Very kid specific.

00:04:11: Yeah I mean only kid around whose mom would censor the sort of cartoons i was allowed to watch...I mean my mum also..i was allowed watching Disney but i wasn't able to watch some specific cartoons like.

00:04:23: also all the disney ones i had were old right?

00:04:24: They're not modern ones which are much faster.

00:04:29: My friends never understood it when my mum would come in and be like, no you can't watch this cartoon.

00:04:34: I don't like it It's too fast or the images are to disturbing.

00:04:36: well Like this kind of thing also

00:04:38: mums can just make stuff up I Don't like this And then they're like this is culturally bad for some reason.

00:04:46: At least my mom I think Handle it that way a lot of times yeah.

00:04:51: But so I mean I know does he mostly work in theater?

00:04:54: Like you don't really do not much film right.

00:04:56: Can you describe like how this idea of acting came into your life?

00:05:03: Hmm, interesting.

00:05:05: Yeah I mean i think I've always been a performer ever since I was young and have performed a lot throughout my life before becoming a professional actor.

00:05:14: And for me the first sort performance platform that I had through music and singing... ...and did a lot of singing & performing when I was quite young.

00:05:24: And then actually the first time that I started doing like professional performing, acting for a living was through Gorky and part of this project called The Roma Army.

00:05:36: That also worked in a professional theatre but also combining art and activism.

00:05:45: so of performing in Germany also was very much political theatre and like art with a narrative that you want to tell or needs be told.

00:06:02: I mean not all narratives need to be told but many narratives are valid if they're on stage presumably, The idea or the feeling in the cast and within the production, And every performance was like you go on stage.

00:06:18: You have a mission which is to bring audience into your world an understanding with you To come out maybe transformed or changed Or have their perspective shifted?

00:06:31: I think really those first years of playing Roman army That's our energy behind that performance was actually kind of, I mean i guess also in those Yalvornan productions or so which are much more autofiction.

00:06:50: It's a fine line between...are you acting?

00:06:52: Are performing?

00:06:53: Are you acting a version yourself ?

00:06:55: Are you performing a former?

00:06:56: you like what it's all very blurry and In the beginning that when you first start playing them That's what makes them impactful.

00:07:06: is that your getting something quote unquote, authentic from the actors.

00:07:11: So De'Aaron kind of approach you about this or like how did you

00:07:17: get to the project

00:07:17: if you were not really acting?

00:07:19: Exactly!

00:07:19: I mean so a lot of shows that she's done which are exploring actual situations... Or one of her plays is called The Situation but actually about current or somehow pressing political identity issues.

00:07:35: Her and the drama tag bring people who have stories about that, like people whose lives are intertwined with that topic.

00:07:42: And so they are interested in you and how to put a version of you on stage?

00:07:47: I came to Gorky somehow through that when the Roman armies wanted someone from the British Romani community who was meant for it but then couldn't be there were this like quite famous Romani, British Romani couple who are artists and they... Like Delayne & Damien LaBarre is what their called.

00:08:10: And they um..like we're designing there the set in a costume and They actually had heard me singing as a child In like a Romani event

00:08:20: but like

00:08:21: in Britain?

00:08:22: Yeah!

00:08:22: And they wanted to find someone or recommend some one To be in production.

00:08:28: so out of blue rang my mom and asked her Her daughter was still singing.

00:08:35: So it's really... You

00:08:35: came to Berlin for that?

00:08:37: Yeah, yeah okay

00:08:38: and then you were like amazing I'm just gonna stay here forever

00:08:42: or how did that go

00:08:43: down?!

00:08:44: It's always funny.

00:08:45: i never thought I'd be her this long but I'm still here nine years later!

00:08:49: Yeah it was a rolling thing in a way.

00:08:51: so with the Roma army because they needed someone kind of last minute.

00:08:58: So I got asked to audition two weeks before the rehearsal started, and then i moved for rehearsals And I had actually a flat just up the road from here at Checkpoint Charlie, which was quite funny place to live for the first time in Berlin.

00:09:12: Weird bit of town but... It feels

00:09:13: very metropolitan.

00:09:14: Yeah!

00:09:16: But also with all this like the checkpoint tourist hotspot and yeah it was a funny place but it was good spot to discover nice bits of Kreuzberg and some sort old school Berlin vibes.

00:09:29: Rome Army did very well and toured a lot, played a lot.

00:09:37: I was here for rehearsals on shows flying back-and forth...

00:09:49: You were really young right?

00:09:51: Yeah

00:09:51: i was twenty.

00:09:52: so then like twenty one for the second show I was, yeah like living this quite crazy life traveling back and forth for shows every few weeks.

00:10:03: Every week.

00:10:05: And i got to the point where i wasn't really living in either country because i was always travelling and... ...and i decided to spend more time in Berlin and try find a way to live here.

00:10:16: Actually then i did residency with Roma Trial.

00:10:19: We applied some money to create a residency program for Romo and Sinti women in Berlin who make jazz music.

00:10:28: And it was like a ten-month residency, I think which would support me.

00:10:33: two other women.

00:10:35: It supported us to get some promo images or do a gig at the music video.

00:10:44: There's someone working with us developer more like public profile as women from the Roman diaspora making jazz and also coming from a Roma background.

00:11:00: And questioning what do people expect when they, because obviously Sinti Jazz is such big genre but somehow trying to break their stereotypes of what is expected of Romani woman musicians?

00:11:15: what does it mean when we say Roma music and can that also be contemporary pop music?

00:11:19: Can that be jazz, if you're someone from the Roma diaspora making it.

00:11:25: That music, does that make it Roma Music then?

00:11:26: Yeah.

00:11:27: You know.

00:11:27: so that kind of thing and yeah It was really a nice project And also like to give a platform To women in jazz Which is anyway quite a small nation than Roma Women In Jazz.

00:11:39: So that's pretty cool!

00:11:39: After that residency ended Then I kinda stayed Really and kept working always for work Like oh i've had more shows coming up New productions are coming and... ...I have been quite lucky since I came here.

00:11:52: I have always been working had another production coming up.

00:11:56: That's the

00:11:58: dream!

00:12:01: So did you consider yourself more like a musician before or maybe still?

00:12:05: Is there acting something that came in, was it something

00:12:10: you dreamed of?

00:12:11: Now I would say... like a theatre maker, that's my job.

00:12:15: I do that pretty much full time but when the first reason i got into Roma Army was because I was a musician and could sing or perform on stage comfortably.

00:12:27: But since working in theatre ironically theatres are my steady-job music is something for art of it.

00:12:38: It's funny because theatre is such a precarious industry, but like music even worse.

00:12:43: Yes of course yeah

00:12:45: I really hate a lot of pop music culture and in music industry culture And everything about monetising it and selling it and packaging it.

00:12:57: If you're an independent artist all the bullshit commercial stuff that have to do yourself is something that I really don't like and don't get any pleasure from, and for me somehow kills a bit of the creative process in The Joy Of It.

00:13:13: And i guess it's the same with lots of art fields.

00:13:15: but yeah...the reason why I love theatre so much?

00:13:18: because unlike music at least in my case There's a whole infrastructure and team around to play.

00:13:24: Yeah, it was the premiere date.

00:13:26: there is like ten people doing different jobs all working to the same aim on different components of one thing whereas for me when I released my EP for example It Was Me And The Producer Working Until It Was Done.

00:13:39: yeah

00:13:39: and working with a visual artist and then Like Doing Art Direction Making A Music Video Editing A Music You Need To Do All Of It.

00:13:48: I edited music videos.

00:13:49: i learned how to make images look nice in Photoshop.

00:13:53: I'd learned so much stuff making this EP, but you did it all myself and actually quite like collaborating on what that brings.

00:14:02: the new creative potential comes out of different people's expertise combining in theatre as a space for

00:14:15: What a normal day of work would look for you.

00:14:18: I mean, just go... You're like one of the few assets who actually goes to work?

00:14:23: No no!

00:14:25: Okay so i have a steady job in theatre but as you will know luckily Germany is quite specific and the repertoire theater system here unusual and that gives you somehow a steady job potentially.

00:14:40: But when I say a steady drop, it might mean playing like four times per month in two different theatres but thats quite steady for me!

00:14:47: And if

00:14:49: i then have production or two productions each year there's blocks of full-time work obviously where your rehearsing every day and maybe playing at a different city sometimes coming back & forth...but developing creative ideas and stuff, I mean most of the productions i've been in almost every production.

00:15:10: I haven't just been it as an actress have also done the music for the show or written co-written with other members of the team or developed.

00:15:18: it produced it replied to funding whatever all these different things that was done many different jobs including performing at any end And that takes a lot time around outside right?

00:15:28: Yeah So yeah, I try to leave time to like write and think creatively.

00:15:33: To develop new ideas but obviously that's... Yeah it's hard finding a when you're always having new projects coming up in different places.

00:15:42: It's hard to have their structure And i think thats something that I definitely struggle with over the years to maintain kind of creative discipline.

00:15:51: Yeah, I'm still working on it.

00:15:53: I don't know

00:15:55: if you have developed some strategies

00:15:58: to create

00:15:58: answers?

00:15:58: Turn this into me

00:16:02: what?

00:16:03: yeah i think well i'm most productive or like happy when i get up and swim in the morning.

00:16:11: i'm quite lucky because i live in bedding.

00:16:13: i don't think anyone's ever said that sentence before but i'm very lucky cause i lived in bedning so i live near flotsonsie.

00:16:18: um Swim in Flotsonsie quite a lot.

00:16:24: That's so cute!

00:16:25: And that is for me like such an either way to start the day

00:16:27: and you're, Like A cold plunged person.

00:16:29: I was.

00:16:29: i have been this winter didn't do it So I feel like I can't claim It but I was For two winters like The ice smashing getting In there.

00:16:36: okay um that Was great actually totally All the benefits.

00:16:41: people say, it's true.

00:16:42: People

00:16:43: will say that

00:16:44: really like yeah absolutely dark Berlin winter depression gone all right.

00:16:49: That's the way highly recommended.

00:16:50: you can't get therapy just like jump in

00:16:53: and get therapy.

00:16:54: I mean if

00:16:56: you can that's good.

00:16:58: You also what do you say?

00:17:00: Like you have always a team around here or you Have people let your work with them.

00:17:04: one Contexting at your workplace as well is also your collective, Glossy Pain.

00:17:09: Do you maybe want to talk a bit about like how that came about?

00:17:12: Like what topics are you focusing on?

00:17:16: has that different from working at Garkey which was also really political place already?

00:17:21: I mean i think for me the first glossy pain production we did back in twenty-twenty when started it Was A Really Nice Opportunity to put into practice myself.

00:17:34: The techniques I'd learned through working at Gorky, especially in Yaw Ronin's ensemble based productions and apply some of that method in a new context.

00:17:44: And we did a lot.

00:17:46: like our first production Bang was communally devised and co-written very much shared vision.

00:17:55: It was interesting because obviously Yeah, there were like four women who wrote it and we all came at the different topics from different angles.

00:18:05: It's sort of a collage piece in a way And that was what made it so interesting with our different perspectives but also the crossovers in our experiences and discovering those.

00:18:16: as we wrote The piece was exploring sexuality That sort of alt-right incel movement, tradwives desire and feminist identity questions.

00:18:32: And what was interesting is that we didn't necessarily aim to write a play but that's what came out of our collective psyche in a way and was the most sort-of pressing thing we wanted to write about then.

00:18:48: And yeah, it was really fun!

00:18:50: It also very different because obviously there is no stage designer doing everything for you or there are no costume person ready to dress you.

00:19:01: I mean... We had a team with a costume designer We carried the floor off ourselves.

00:19:07: Or we had this amazing set made by a costume designer, which was like... She also works a lot in state theater and it's using huge curtains to create because that we've performed at NTD.

00:19:22: quite a long room I mean wanted make them more cosy work with length And she makes an amazing long corridor of pink curtains And it was sort of almost like volvic or vaginal canale somehow.

00:19:38: But every time we played, and we were lucky to be invited back to play quite a lot but every time I played that we had the steamer by hand!

00:19:46: It took hours...and we didn't have industrial steamers.

00:19:50: We had like hand steamers.

00:19:53: It was such a mission, but it's the sort of thing where you're like.

00:19:56: yeah I'm in the free scene.

00:19:57: Like iIm going to spend this whole evening steaming these curtains by hand and they will look beautiful at the end.

00:20:03: And that's part of it!

00:20:04: That's...and think thats quite nice.

00:20:06: its good not get too comfortable and privileged and buffered by state scenes and expect someone pick up your laundry for you the hard work that goes on to make it possible.

00:20:17: Then you

00:20:17: can also like appreciate, I mean yeah i'm doing my own play right now and every day i'm on vinted shopping for costumes then running around the city picking up my past.

00:20:31: It's fine though if someone has a good reason why there are lots of people working in theatre Right now.

00:20:43: you also are like touring around with Glossy Pain, right?

00:20:48: You were at... Oh we

00:20:48: were!

00:20:49: Yeah.

00:20:50: We had one show that we did in Teata Underua.

00:20:53: actually it premiered.

00:20:55: I think it was in twenty-twenty three and we played a lot the round In The Last Few Years And then It Was Restaged Just Recently Like At the beginning of the year when went to Luxembourg as well which is nice.

00:21:08: yeah just see Luxemburg Cool, Luxembourg.

00:21:14: Fancy!

00:21:14: But yeah so we're still like playing and there will be new stuff coming up just when I'm not exactly sure depends on the funding rounds.

00:21:22: Yes it always does

00:21:25: Yeah but everyone's working also.

00:21:27: that's a nice thing about collectives.

00:21:28: Everyone is always working their own staff then come together Go and do stuff come back.

00:21:33: And

00:21:34: yeah, you also have like the background from something else that you just did.

00:21:38: Yeah, it's like reorganize your thoughts which is

00:21:40: actually.

00:21:42: other members of The Collective Worked Just in a residency and stat theater minds working on production as well Mm-hmm.

00:21:47: I went to visit them Which was really nice.

00:21:49: Also too see what they made in there.

00:21:54: It's always so nice when people you love working with and who are really creative process, You find inspiring.

00:22:00: then you can drop-in on it to see what they've done.

00:22:03: And yeah that is also a nice thing about being in the collective.

00:22:08: I guess Not like not always be in the creative process but witnessing how it unfolds watching something develop.

00:22:17: That' s also something i enjoy.

00:22:20: Yeah, working adjacent to other people and like being inspired by them.

00:22:24: The feedback loop of that?

00:22:26: If it works as really giving... I also wanted to talk a bit about you were not we've talked about you!

00:22:35: I want to talk with you about the film that you chose.

00:22:40: We're not gonna do any spoilers okay no big ones.

00:22:45: let's pull like dad and still try to talk about in a bid.

00:22:48: yeah i watched last

00:22:50: week.

00:22:50: What did you think?

00:22:51: I liked it a lot, i mean...I like the style alot..the colors and kind of like...it's very vibey so....i really liked that!

00:23:03: And also helped with maybe some things that we already talked about.

00:23:15: For example, there were some critiques about it saying like oh okay no I have to say a few words about the movie.

00:23:23: So its'a film about young girl who's thirteen in France and she learns that She is going to turn blind pretty soon And It's basically her last summer seeing and experiencing A lot of different things and she gets a bit like, yeah.

00:23:45: She really starts to test out a lot of boundaries And wants to experience a lot Of things while she can still see Yeah there were some critiques about it What you already mentioned that she was naked quite a bit

00:24:00: But

00:24:01: I don't know...I felt in the context off The movie where it was really like this painting and like, It wasn't really sexualized.

00:24:10: And also there were a lot of Naked people.

00:24:12: to be honest that I'm not per se against showing people naked.

00:24:25: you know its more about how do show someone naked?

00:24:33: I mean, this girl is supposed to be thirteen.

00:24:35: The actress was actually seventeen i think but...I THINK you should not like shy away from the fact that people discover sexuality pretty young so- I mean some people do and um..to also show that in a way that can maybe BE A GOOD WAY Like y'know it's not per se like oh don't show young people being sexual.

00:24:58: And I felt the, I felt that portrayal was not like male gazey or those kind of things.

00:25:04: but i can also see people feeling differently about that.

00:25:08: and then of course I was really interested in how you felt about the portrayal of Roma and new people in the film because...I do feel so.

00:25:21: Ava meets a boy who's like a bit older than her which is when your thirteen can be quite a lot when someone is like five years older than you.

00:25:32: And he is still, I feel portrayed in quite a cliche way or like in the way that people might expect.

00:25:42: let's put it that way Like In The Beginning.

00:25:44: It Also Seems That He seems kind of homeless and actually not actually homeless but just these images who come back But then also some things of that might be reality.

00:25:55: So yeah, you know I'm just interested in how.

00:25:57: who felt about that?

00:25:59: Yeah i mean to start with where we started.

00:26:03: so to start the sexuality of Ava...I chose a film because it's a film that stayed with me and was surprised by it.

00:26:13: And like there is something quite arresting the film and how it's shot.

00:26:19: And so, its like short on thirty five millimeters.

00:26:21: So that is very beautiful.

00:26:22: images are very rich!

00:26:25: The fact of story line kind pivots this young woman losing her sight.

00:26:31: I think it plays with that through the format being beautifully shot as well Saturated in these rich colors.

00:26:41: I thought it was interesting how a lot of the film and this sort of very nice French poetic voiceover Ava is talking about fear, blackness coming in like closing everything off.

00:26:55: And the fear of losing that rich image she hasn't even really yet had the chance to explore because she's so young.

00:27:05: When i rewatched when looking for things to suggest I was like, oh okay.

00:27:10: When they're talking about the fear of blackness coming in what is it actually that they are referring to?

00:27:15: And and i think partly its obviously her losing his sight going blind not being able to see um living in darkness forever.

00:27:25: but then other part of this play a lot with it.

00:27:28: The first shot is very powerful shot of this Black Dog running through beach of all these sweaty white bodies covering each other in sun cream and there's this dog dying through it.

00:27:39: And it comes, and it rests by her.

00:27:41: That is the Dog Of Huan who has a Roma character on the film.

00:27:45: The dog has sort of menacing energy because you're worried like are they going to attack anyone?

00:27:49: He's really

00:27:50: nervous but

00:27:51: he doesn't!

00:27:52: It just rests.

00:27:55: For me that's kind of what the film is playing with, we see violence.

00:28:01: We see fear in the dark and unknown In other that are not fitting into this scene.

00:28:08: But actually The dog isn't a danger to anyone.

00:28:11: In fact it saves one life later on in the film.

00:28:15: Not really a spoiler.

00:28:19: One image of darkness often shown throughout the film Is police big black

00:28:25: horses,

00:28:26: who were sort of circling this sort of idyllic French holiday beach scene in a very menacing way and their dark shadow is cast over the bright sand.

00:28:37: And having watched a bit of documentary once about like french police violence and kind of castle state control I think that's very much tensioned with exploring.

00:28:53: Okay, where is the violence actually of society?

00:28:57: Is it in The Dark Unknown Other?

00:28:59: or is that dark unknown other actually the apparatus of the state?

00:29:03: and somehow like I was interested for that reason.

00:29:09: I thought the relationship between The Mother and Ava is quite interesting, especially in terms of what's potentially difficult about the film which is Ava being a thirteen year old who has sexual awakening.

00:29:26: And obviously there are questions like was that even possible?

00:29:29: Um, sexual coercion.

00:29:34: But I think the plot line goes very... The way the plot is framed paints it as strongly as it can against that narrative of her being coerced or abused or corrupted or taken advantage off.

00:29:46: It shows her being someone who firstly she's given permission by her mother to have sex in a way that is slightly uncomfortable and like her mum has shown us this kind active woman who is trying to be cool with her daughter in a way that feels quite cringy and Is saying like oh, I also had sex at your age go do it.

00:30:10: And Ava's like.

00:30:11: Oh my god shut up.

00:30:12: Yeah But In a way That somehow sets It Up for To Be Like.

00:30:16: Okay She's Been Given Permission but Its Not Something That she Looks Like She Wants and She Doesn't Want Hear About It and She's Like Embarrassed?

00:30:22: But Then When She Realises That She'S Gonna Go Blind Suddenly It's Like She...She Wants experience everything while she can still see.

00:30:32: And I think it's interesting how, because i was really watching it thinking about okay what you know is... How problematic is?

00:30:42: Yeah and-and she really..I don't know!

00:30:45: The plotline gives her agency for decisions.

00:30:48: yeah It very clearly shows a young woman who goes after what she wants.

00:30:52: there is no one forcing into these situations which Yeah, it's maybe more true than is comfortable.

00:31:01: Yeah also like that I was.

00:31:03: oh she seems to be comfortable with her body and showing it And its

00:31:10: not

00:31:11: something you would see a lot or assume from really young girl.

00:31:18: but yeah i mean might be nice if your like a third in your girl then you're not ashamed of yourself.

00:31:23: Um, it's also maybe worth portraying that version or that possibility.

00:31:30: That someone at that age is yeah comfortable in their body and experiencing a lot of um... I mean she's like-.

00:31:39: Also because she's losing her sight She wants to experience a lot sensations through her skin Kind of perfectly sense,

00:31:47: and I think she really when i was questioning whether or not.

00:31:50: I thought it Was okay?

00:31:51: It's like but she really goes after him a lot.

00:31:54: Yeah She isn't bit

00:31:57: rude

00:31:58: But somehow that...I liked That!

00:32:00: There is this person with drive With an ambition that Is maybe uncomfortable to watch And going against what would expect Or even think Would be ok for girl Of the age.

00:32:16: Way the plot is framed.

00:32:18: It feels like she's in control of her destiny.

00:32:21: Yeah, she's taking control back from what it potentially a very life-limiting disability.

00:32:29: and And yeah there is.

00:32:31: so they're stuff with the Roma character.

00:32:33: I found interesting because I didn't necessarily when i watched at first time.

00:32:38: There's nothing blurb about him being Roma.

00:32:41: You have to kind of look quite hard on the interviews with The Director, find anything about it.

00:32:45: and then made so much sense.

00:32:47: suddenly when they went to the Romani camp at end of film I was like okay he's meant to be Roma!

00:32:56: Maybe i was slow to pick up even but that somehow because I wasn't expecting him.

00:33:02: I wasn' t expecting there to be a Roman character in the film, i didn't assume that because he was sleeping on people of color and maybe fetishizes them a bit.

00:33:34: And Ava is, I think potentially dual heritage.

00:33:38: it's never said where she's from but her mom in the bathroom at one point when they're like doing their makeup together says oh you're dark!

00:33:43: Like your father yeah...and Ava looks herself in the mirror and you can see that she's seeing herself through this other in gaze of.

00:33:54: I'm dark, i'm different.

00:33:55: I don't fit in and somehow with the dog finding her on the beach it's like she is The Dark Other In That Scene And She Feels Like That!

00:34:02: And She Doesn't Feel Comfortable In Her World.

00:34:05: And...and I like that.

00:34:06: her first connection With Huan Who Is The Romani Boy She Steals His Dog.

00:34:12: Yeah, and I like them because that's such a stereotype about Romani people is they come in.

00:34:16: They steal your dogs or they steal things... Oh do you

00:34:18: see?

00:34:18: They steal dogs!

00:34:19: In England

00:34:20: everyone thinks that Romani People steal their dogs.

00:34:22: If the dog goes missing then it's the gypsies!

00:34:25: I don't think they

00:34:26: want to have a dog mate but anyway It's as in England at least there are stereotypes of the Romani boys who steal our dogs.

00:34:33: I liked how she starts with her stealing his dog already then starting to invert this expectation of, yeah what do we expect from her?

00:34:45: A girl with a maybe slightly middle-class background and the director said that she wrote the character.

00:34:52: It was like.

00:34:53: I chose it also because its a film written in directed by women And she said that the character of Juan was inspired by a Romani guy in her school class, who was really like treated very badly by the teachers and experienced a lot of institutional racism at school.

00:35:10: She wanted to put that into film and show their experience.

00:35:16: That is how we first meet him with police chasing him off the beach.

00:35:21: I think what i saw on that scene was disproportionate amount like violence or police involvement in an argument between two people.

00:35:31: And how that is often the case where Romney people are concerned, state violence has escalated and they're treated with disproportionate levels of control... Or what's word?

00:35:45: I don't know.

00:35:46: Treated badly more badly than other people.

00:35:51: Brain work!

00:35:53: Yeah.. It's played by a real Roma person from France and Manouche, I think.

00:36:00: And also members of his family are looking at the credits in the film.

00:36:08: The director went to many different Romani camps around Paris for people who would be comfortable being there.

00:36:18: That process is something that i'd love to know more about.

00:36:23: How that was done and like how the outreach?

00:36:27: Happened what it looked.

00:36:28: Like who bought her there, right You know these are quite difficult places for a white French director to access.

00:36:34: Yeah But I think you knew in terms of like representational politics She had a Roman character on her film when it's played by a Roma guy.

00:36:40: That's quite cool.

00:36:41: That's like more than we generally get.

00:36:45: And then that way I liked that and also I liked I thought the portrayal of the Romani Camp was quite authentic.

00:36:54: And she said in an interview, the director that it's quiet hard to film there because the Romani women aren't meant be filmed and its quite private and they don't want people documenting them.

00:37:06: but clearly like they got a good... There must have been a good relationship of trust set up.

00:37:14: even allow people into filming.

00:37:16: How

00:37:16: are they not meant to be filmed?

00:37:17: Well I think It's quite private, like the women are quite protected in traditional Romani communities and sort of not meant to be exposed to outside.

00:37:30: In many settings it is quite conservative and they want to keep away influence or outside gaze on them which is a two-way street discrimination and protection versus yeah some more old-school patriarchal ideas.

00:37:49: Yeah, I mean I felt it was also interesting because when i watched the film... ...I thought that I hadn't really seen any portrayal of Romani people in a film like positive or negative Like.. I was like oh actually.... Sameness

00:38:10: in a film

00:38:11: and that's weird.

00:38:14: And I mean, maybe I'm also not like...I didn't do day-bray search now or where many people been portrayed on film but it kind of speaks to the fact they did watch a lot movies in my life.

00:38:31: just this group is very intensely under represented in media.

00:38:42: Is that fair to say?

00:38:44: I mean, i think the Roma and the Romani people...I would say actually are kind of like disproportionately overrepresented in film but not by themselves yeah.

00:38:57: so there's many films and series which will have a Romani or quote-unquote gypsy character who is there as a sort of exotic, corrupting like frightening vilified plot device basically.

00:39:18: Or portrayed... A bit in this film plays the role of giving freedom to someone that can't have it otherwise and so often the Romani in film are the freedom needed for someone trapped.

00:39:37: And but it's always a very contradictory portrayal.

00:39:42: because like, In this film The Romani I think often portrayed as being very affected by discrimination and racism wherever they are out of strict societal control.

00:40:05: So it's like, okay so either... I don't know if you can be both but this that's always the sort of stereotype or the clash in how they're portrayed and i was interested in Ava because i think it does show both.

00:40:17: It shows a sort-of truth In The Middle Of The Two um.. of those sort of portrayals And yeah!

00:40:26: And its played by people who are actually Romani.

00:40:31: when it comes to like Romani portrayals in film, It's taking what you can get.

00:40:37: I mean now thinking of now like Chocolat for example.

00:40:39: do you know Chocolate?

00:40:40: Oh yeah!

00:40:42: Like...I watched that like a hundred years but there is Johnny Depp right?

00:40:45: Yeah its Johnny Deppe playing the sexy romany guy.

00:40:49: Okay yeah no i don't remember

00:40:52: her

00:40:52: nice french story and Its same.

00:40:55: anyway he has freedom she needs from her boredom small French village.

00:41:02: He comes, he's the disrupting force

00:41:03: kind of a magical creature in a way

00:41:07: and so often that is what a Romani character isn't film it's a plot device for white characters liberation or like freedom from their circumstances with The Kind Of Danger.

00:41:16: all that yeah And I liked this film.

00:41:19: There Is A Twist At The End where i felt Like It Re-Claimed That A Bit ,it was taking back control.

00:41:27: I won't say how.

00:41:33: Yeah, we're talking about like chocolate.

00:41:36: You have seen

00:41:38: it!

00:41:39: But i was like twelve or something.

00:41:42: and now that i'm also thinking about it...I think i just didn't pick up the hints you know?

00:41:48: I don't know if it's explicitly stated in a film but for me because i wasn't really in contact with alot of for many people and I didn't really...I mean, i guess I understood what misconceptions are but wouldn't have even probably understood the symbolism of someone wanting to hint like oh this is a rumour character.

00:42:14: So

00:42:14: it did a lot for Johnny Depp's image you know?

00:42:17: Forever after that he was the kind of boho cultural appropriation gypsy

00:42:25: man

00:42:27: But he did, it was interesting.

00:42:28: I think It Was In Preparation for that role actually... He might have played a Romani character in another film and i might be getting the chronology confused but he went an actually lived with this famous Roma band Oh!

00:42:40: The name of which is escaping me?

00:42:45: Yeah anyway..he went to live with them as research And there's some quite fun stories about online.

00:42:55: He was interviewed about it for this film, the Chaplin film.

00:42:58: And obviously he only speaks well of them and his time there... ...and found that very interesting in revealing and learn a lot and blah-blah-blAH.

00:43:06: All of that.

00:43:07: um yeah.

00:43:10: That whole thing I don't know!

00:43:14: Yeah but even so i find that quite interesting that Johnny Depp went and lived with a Romani band.

00:43:21: I mean, i'm just wondering because like... What's

00:43:25: her name?

00:43:26: Sorry.

00:43:26: I have to find it!

00:43:27: Yeah

00:43:27: you can find it.

00:43:30: No..I am going to have to do that later.

00:43:32: I guess I was just wondering...

00:43:34: Tarif de Hadoek.

00:43:35: That is where he lived sorry.

00:43:37: Because

00:43:39: what I said- I didn't pick up the clues but imagine You did also as a younger person Do you feel Like The portrayal of The portray like effected it, the portray that you saw in pop culture.

00:43:56: Do you remember dad having any affect on you or I don't know being annoyed by it?

00:44:01: Or... Being neutral about it!

00:44:04: I

00:44:05: think generally its always just quite disappointing.

00:44:10: I remember there was one kids show i used to watch.

00:44:13: I think it was the borrowers.

00:44:16: It's like a book that got turned into film for children in England, and there is a Romani character.

00:44:23: but obviously he was like a crooked thief who stole their boots or something.

00:44:27: But you're super excited as kid when a Romini vado or Romani caravan wheels onto this scene And has all of cultural iconography but none of the culture authenticity and its played kind of cartoon caricature-ish portrayal Romani villain.

00:44:45: Yeah, I think that's often been the experience of watching anything as a Romani character also... Of course we were talking about Disney earlier and there was a kid who loved Esmeralda.

00:44:57: it is at least in the Disney version a Romani character, I mean in the book she's not actually Romani.

00:45:06: She's like stolen or some bollocks.

00:45:08: So it's like whole other thing about white people being corrupted blah-blah-bluh.

00:45:14: but in the Disney version they made her to be real Romani characters quite unreal and she is cartoon yeah anyway.

00:45:20: And i think actually as Merelda from the Disney film comes across quite well Like shes' quite cool!

00:45:28: All disney heroines of that Disney era I guess still are quite cool characters.

00:45:33: but like as representations go, yeah she was a dancer.

00:45:39: But a lot of Romani people do dance traditional dancing to make money in the square- In the Square?

00:45:46: Like i'm sure also historically that would have been that they would have been most conspicuous or visible.

00:45:53: Yeah, as a character I think she's quite cool actually.

00:45:57: I'm really not a Disney fan but like you know... That was one of the characters who was conspicuously represented.

00:46:10: us having Romney background and obviously nowadays it's like Peaky Blinders.

00:46:16: Peaky Blinders is another one where Yeah, it's super cool that a really mainstream TV show everyone loves and is now trying to dress like the main family are meant.

00:46:30: There's so much stereotypical bollocks in there that just like goes on and on.

00:46:34: And as the series gets sort of, it goes on.

00:46:36: now the film is just gets to a point where its bit ridiculous and annoying.

00:46:40: Have you seen it?

00:46:43: I haven't!

00:46:44: No...I mean i have the image- Is it Killian?

00:46:48: Like some sexy

00:46:48: Killian.

00:46:49: Yeah..I see his face infront me.

00:46:51: right know but no I havent' seen it

00:46:53: Lucky you.

00:46:55: I mean, it's interesting.

00:46:56: Like if we are thinking about the present and future hopefully what do you kind of wish for?

00:47:07: Or how... I feel like it is always really important that arts do their part in breaking stereotypes And of course representation matters and stuff.

00:47:24: Yeah, and do you also say it a lot?

00:47:26: Like oh we take what we can get but maybe there's was like version of like...what could be dreamt of.

00:47:33: Yeah yeah totally I mean It's all so..yeah i don't mean to somehow be dismissive about wanting better in another context or Obviously, I would love a perfect world where we can break the racist stereotypical portrayal of Romani people over the last like... centuries.

00:47:57: But it's a long way!

00:47:59: It is hard battle and there are lots to unpick but i do think its happening.

00:48:04: There are films being made by with four Romani People centering their narratives.

00:48:14: They do exist.

00:48:15: Um, they're just not being produced on a mass scale obviously or like.

00:48:18: no there's not lot of them and most of them probably played at the Akadakeer Festival of Romani film.

00:48:24: um which is great because that means I've seen a lot of their over the years.

00:48:28: so it was like a real privilege to have had access to that.

00:48:32: but its gradual and-but It IS happening.

00:48:34: i think when given the platform to the means of self-representation, Romani people can do it themselves and they are doing it themselves.

00:48:47: It's just like a question of distribution resources.

00:48:53: who has the means to tell that narrative?

00:48:56: And in an ideal world for this film festival I would have loved to have chosen A Feminist Film written and directed by Romani women telling this story for example.

00:49:07: but I couldn't find one or i hadn't seen one.

00:49:09: maybe there is one that i haven't seen and i would love to see it if please message me.

00:49:17: There's quite a lot of.

00:49:18: also, they're hard to access like the other thing?

00:49:20: Like i found some...I had a list..i wanted to watch this podcast And really hard to get hold off.

00:49:26: Also yeah and luckily i'd seen Ava on MUBI And one of the reasons why I also wanted to suggest it was because as you said, some of the portrayals are stereotypical or do fall into cliche.

00:49:38: But in such a sort-of like clearly clear way that its not messy and tangled.

00:49:44: there's no.

00:49:45: for me It is very obvious.

00:49:46: Yeah...it Was Very Clear To Point Out and That Something Maybe In The Screening i'd Be Super Interested To Talk About With The Audience Like What what they see and that, What They Take From It.

00:49:57: And really being able to call it out and name so clearly because its so clearly shown but also there is a truth in it!

00:50:03: That tension of like for example when the film There's A Romany Girl Who Is Getting Married At Sixteen...that obviously not something I as feminist align with, but is it a reality?

00:50:17: Is it a

00:50:17: truth?".

00:50:18: Yeah.

00:50:18: Like when many girls get married young in traditional communities.

00:50:22: so that should be told.

00:50:24: like just because it's something which maybe not comfortable or doesn't isn't?

00:50:28: yeah well I would wish- It doesn't mean its'nt happening and then i shouldn't talk about it... Or show it!

00:50:33: That's more reason to show it than talk about actually.

00:50:36: um And I don't think they've done.

00:50:39: Oh, poor her boo-hoo.

00:50:41: She's a victim of her circumstance way like she's pretty cool.

00:50:44: Yeah!

00:50:45: She has got quite a lot of agency in the film.

00:50:47: actually yeah...she's got quite A LOT OF...she is the final click In The Narrative and so that Is a complexity which worth exploring.

00:50:57: I didn't quite answer your question though.

00:50:58: sorry

00:50:59: Well it was my question.

00:51:00: I don't even

00:51:00: remember..I gotta...I gotta like a closing question That is like what would you recommend?

00:51:07: to someone who's maybe like young, maybe like sixteen and from like Romani background.

00:51:14: And wants to get into yes telling their own stories or telling stories in general?

00:51:20: you also said oh things are hard to access which kind of makes it hard for people to see themselves represented stuff like that.

00:51:28: not everybody is going to be picked up by Yael Ronan flown to Berlin!

00:51:34: What would say a young

00:51:35: person?

00:51:37: The industry is changing.

00:51:39: And for example, there's now Patrin films which has led by two British Romanes Jack Lee White and Lisa Smith.

00:51:48: they are producing directing writing etc.

00:51:53: films about Romani people, by Romani People.

00:51:56: And that's a change and they're my age or you know.

00:52:01: like the new generation coming through I think things are shifting these opportunities out there now in it from the younger generation.

00:52:12: And I also think, i'm always like amazed by The level of pride and self-representation which social media gives people.

00:52:22: There's so much really cool influences on Instagram and TikTok talking about Romani heritage identity Which is also even for me, I am twenty nine Tiktok still a bit too.

00:52:34: I'm too old for TikTok, but even so.

00:52:37: This is sick!

00:52:39: Like...I wish this had existed when i was young or- For me..i don't know if i necessarily needed it because my mum's an activist and raised with it.

00:52:48: But there are stuff out now that can be accessible and empowering and joining globally in a very different way Yeah....but im not sure qualified to give advice on how, like access the industry and tell your narrative because I think film industry or art industry is always really hard.

00:53:12: To get into...to get through Yeah!

00:53:15: ...to get stuff made in And it's not an easy place regardless of you story Your background You know.

00:53:25: obviously its a industry which will always privilege the wealthy because they can afford to fail.

00:53:32: And that's something which needs to change for everyone.

00:53:37: and I think, The more initiatives that are brought into help shift that balance we'll get more interesting stories about Romani people.

00:53:47: It is already starting.

00:53:53: Find you, the one is see-you.

00:53:55: Where can people find you in real life or virtually?

00:54:09: Where can you find me?

00:54:10: I'm playing in Gorky until, so like many people in Berlin might know this but the Sherman-Langhoff era of Gorki is ending.

00:54:17: This summer.

00:54:18: So i'm playing gorky till the end of May.

00:54:20: um...I'm playing In Thalia and Hamburg A show called Ponea Until The End Of The Season Maybe next season I don't know yet.

00:54:30: I am gonna be at Budapest At the Roma Heroes Theatre Festival beginning of may doing a solo show.

00:54:37: Anyone in budapest come through.

00:54:40: And I'm going to be playing a lot in Freiburg from the autumn.

00:54:43: We're doing a new show in Freiberg, which is quite exciting but no thing have ever been down that far.

00:54:49: Exploring Germany!

00:54:50: Yeah

00:54:51: so if anyone wants come to Freiberg and it would be awesome... If not i'll have some more shows in Berlin.

00:54:56: probably.

00:54:58: yeah just message me online.. I always like to hear people's nice yes

00:55:05: And of course, if they want to see you in the near future.

00:55:10: They can come to The Scraining Of Ava at Cinema Transdorpia.

00:55:15: it's the twentieth May and right is going to be there and we're gonna have a little talk.

00:55:20: end off cause We Want As Many People That Is Possible To Yeah.

00:55:25: Talk A Bit More About The Film and also which I'm Gonna Say Again Please This podcast, a rating that would be great if you liked it.

00:55:36: You can also write a little feedback and with that I'd say goodbye

00:55:44: And

00:55:46: see at the screening and everyone who's listening here.

00:55:49: Everyone is listening At the next podcast

00:55:52: episode.

00:55:53: Nice thanks for having

00:55:54: me.

00:56:01: Feminist Time Travel is a podcast of pro-quote film e.v.

00:56:04: supported by more cultural support from Berliner Sparkasse.

00:56:08: If you want to support us or always be up-to-date, just follow us on Instagram under at feminist time travel.

00:56:16: Or subscribe to the pro quota film newsletter and of course also come to our screenings that we are about once a month everywhere in Berlin.

00:56:24: Filming,

00:56:27: cutting and post production for the podcast makes the studio thirty six.

00:56:31: The concept is developed by Clara de Ventier Irina Thieb and Svenja Heinrichs.